Talk:Placenames in Shetland, from Hanseatic Documents.

172.something was me :-)))

What does Hanseatic mean? JAStewart 15:21, 2 November 2006 (GMT)

For hanseatic places read instead: Shetland waters, islands and places used regulary as trading posts, anchorages, settlements or otherwise by individual merchants (or their "companies") of various members of the Hanse League as in particular the seatrading German cities of Bremen, Hamburg, Lübeck, Wismar, Rostock and Danzig (now Gdansk/Poland) and the names of these places as given in official documents (minutes and records of the regular meetings of the Hanse (Hansetage) as well as those of the Royal Courts of Danmark/Norway and Germany) or mentioned in various company notes, records about legal disputes and trials etc. and kept in the archives of the same members of the Hanse.

I will add a note ... promised ;-) Islandhopper 17:33, 2 November 2006 (GMT)

Hi folks. This page needs major surgery. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but in its present form it is highly misleading. Any thoughts? Brian 00:55, 21 February 2008 (MST)

Hi Brian. What's highly misleading except Arentsburgh (in different spellings)? All the rest is given or discussed in the sources as described. I personally don't agree with one particular name and the linked location ... but just that is published elsewhere before ... ;-) Islandhopper 17:07, 21 February 2008 (MST)

Dear folks. What is wrong with this page is that it isn't (by and large) a list of 'Hanseatic place names'. It is a list of Shetland place names that occur in documents about Shetland's German merchants. If the aim is to show places where German merchants traded, the piece still needs a lot of attention. Brian 00:34, 6 June 2008 (MDT)

Brian,
As this is yet another subject I know nothing about, I'm entirely open to suggestions.
I believe that all the details Islandhopper entered were from German records, which I have no way of checking. I think the intention of this page was to simply relate names in historic documents to current place names in Shetland. I don't think from the text he entered that he meant it to be anything else.
Hence we've renamed the page, to better reflect that intention. And I'm afraid Islandhopper is still 'off on sick leave', so he can't reply himself. Although I hope he will be able to come back soon. (And in case he's well enough to read this but not type, "Get dee finger oot Wolfgang an gie up budderin yun peerie nurses" ;-) ...)
Might I suggest that a new, separate, page is needed for "Hanseatic Trading Places", or something like that.
Your ideas and suggestions would be very much appreciated on this.
Cheers,
Robbie 15:48, 6 June 2008 (MDT)

I fear that the only way to deal with this subject is to start from scratch. These aren't 'Hanseatic placenames in Shetland': they are Shetland place names referred to in some German documents (with, by the way, several errors). There are only a few names in Shetland that derive from the activities of German merchants: see Eileen Brook-Freeman's article in the current Shetland Life. Brian 12:26, 7 June 2008 (MDT)

Well, maybe starting again is an option. But, on the other hand, perhaps the page is still named wrong.
Surely it is possible to have a page which references the names used in historical documents, and link them to current place names. Or am I missing a point?
From what you say all historical documents must be absolutely wrong and should therefore be dismissed as useless information.
I have to agree with you in that. As I find it difficult to relate to the, "so called truth" in any historical document.
Do what you want with it. You'll get no objections from me. I passed the stage of believing any of Shetland's history many moons ago.
Robbie 14:26, 7 June 2008 (MDT)

On second thoughts Brian. Create a page, as it should be, and then we can consider whether this page should be deleted.
At least, that way, we get to see the argument against this page clearly.
Robbie 14:34, 7 June 2008 (MDT)

Whit!! I never said thatat 'all historical documents must be absolutely wrong and should therefore be dismissed as useless information'!! All I said is that it is not appropriate to call place names mentioned in German documents 'German place names'!!

I will have a bash at a page in a few weeks time. Brian 10:52, 8 June 2008 (MDT)

Brian,
Sorry if I am a bit abrupt in my replies sometimes. I can see what Islandhopper was doing when he made the page. Maybe it is still named wrong, but as far as I can see it is an accurate (in most parts) representation of details from Hanseatic documents which mentioned places in Shetland.
I think the page title now maybe better reflects his intention.
There is a great need for the Hanseatic trade with Shetland to be explained properly. I would suggest that this should be dealt with under headings such as: "Hanseatic Trading Places", to properly define the places where this trade was executed. And "Hanseatic Traders (or Trading)", to give an overview of how the trading was built up historically.
I would value your opinion on this approach.
Robbie 14:36, 8 June 2008 (MDT)

Hello Brian,
sorry for delay. I'm more or less back on stage ...
... so we may start a little discussion about 'facts and intentions'.
To start with: I agree, the original title was probably missleading. But my interest is not that much in titles or headlines; I am interested in the 'content'. Just to make it clear: the original title wasn't more misleading than your wording 'Shetland's German merchants': no not 'Shetland's' ... only 'in Shetland'; not 'German' ... only 'German speaking'. They were Hanseatic merchants, not German citizens but citizens from Hamburg and Bremen, Lübeck or somewhere else - Germany didn't exist in those days. Sorry, that's not nitpicking, just to demonstrate how easy it is to fall 'from the cliff edge'. As far as the original title is concerned: I didn't want to say 'Hanseatic trading places in Shetland' because that sounds a bit "like that are the places ... finished!" As we could see, at least one additional place (Gunnister) came back to the light and I - personally spoken - do believe that at least two on the North Sea coast and probably additional six or seven are due to show up on the Atlantic coast. That's clear from placenames and for nautical reasons.

BDW:
Are there any hinds in documents which survived in Shetland about the following trading goods. What are 'Hamburg water' and 'Hamburger cringle bread'? In my private opinion: Hamburg water could be something like Gin, in Dutch: Genever. I don't believe that it is a brand of 'Korn' (barley or rye) because that was more or less known as immature "Whisky" (???). The cringle bread might be a special form of "double backed white bread" made from wheat. They were similar to some modern US forms of "bisquits": round and with a hole in the middle to hand them up on long lines under deck of the ships. We do know that both the products were traded with the Shetland gentry but no-one can say exactly what they were. Any descriptions in Shetland papers ??? Islandhopper 18:33, 10 October 2008 (MDT)

Minor edits`

This article could do with the following:

• Capitalisation of "Hanseatic" throughout.
• Linking of place names.
• Tidying up of the list at the end, should be bulletted list.

etc. --Pett 12:18, 14 June 2010 (MDT)

I had a go at linking some of the more obvious place names. The article's protection level has been modified so it is now editable by users.

EM 06:54, 29 November 2011 (MST)

NB Category:Shetland Place Names created, please add.--Pett 05:48, 29 November 2011 (MST)